"Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood."
Sometimes I just don't understand my generation. Maybe that's because I'm really a 62 year old, stuck in a 22 year olds body. Maybe it is the people that I associate with. I don't know. I'm at a loss though, I really am. I'm not sure if it's just me or not, so let me share with you.....

My friend went on a date. Now for starters my friend doesn't really do dates. She's more of buy me a few drinks and take me home kind of girl. As are, alot of people I know. They seem to miss out on the whole dating thing, and jump to the 'good stuff', as they would say. Not my thing, but it does seem to be a popular thing with girls my age (at least the ones I know). So each to their own. However, on Friday night she went on a date. With a man she met at work. He asked her if she would like to go out, and she accepted. Nothing to strange so far. So yesterday I spoke to my friend, and asked her how her date went. She actually look traumatised for a moment, and told me it was the most awful experience she had ever gone through. Now my initial thoughts were the guy had turned out to be a complete jerk, they'd had nothing to say to each other, and the date had ended before it had really started. Silly me.

So what was this man guilty of? Well I shall tell you, he was just to nice! God damn him, and all the nice men of the world, how can you be to nice! So let me give you a run through of what the horrible brute did to my friend. He brought her flowers! Tut tut....doesn't he know he only has to do that when he's done something wrong? What a loser! He opened doors for her, and pulled her chair out when she sat down. Good manners! Oh no! We don't want them! Silly boy! He wouldn't let her pay for anything, grrrrr at him! They went to the cinema, and someone was talking loudly, and my friend asked them to be quiet, and they were slightly rude to her, at which point this man stepped in, and told them that wasn't anyway to speak to a 'lady'. I think that was the thing she hated the most. After listing his crimes to me, my friend looked at me, expecting me to be as shocked and appalled as she was. At that point the only thing that shocked me was that someone had called her a lady.

I questioned my friend a little further about all this. Because I really did think it was some kind of joke. She was deadly serious though. She informed me that men just weren't like that these days. Well I'm guessing the ones that get you drunk and take you home on the first night, generally aren't. She told me she liked to pay her way. Now that I can understand. However, if a man insists on paying I don't think that is something to be offended by. In my eyes it just means he was brought up right. She said she couldn't handle him opening doors for her etc. That she was a fully capable woman, that didn't need a man to do such things for her. She was also upset that he had jumped to her defence in the cinema. In her eyes she is well able to look after herself, and doesn't need a man to do it for her. She felt, because of that, he somehow felt he was in control, and the dominanat party. *sigh*.

I didn't try to reason with my friend, as her mind was pretty set on it, and to be perfectly honest I don't think the two of them would be a good match anyway. It just makes me sad to think that my friend would reject a man behaving well towards her so easily, and also makes me wonder just exactly what she considers to be a good date, if that was bad. Thinking about it, women seem to be in a difficult position. On one hand we are strong, independent people, who are capable of looking after ourselves, and on the other I am sure there is a part of us all that just likes to be looked after, and feel protected. I know I feel that. I know I am capable of functioning alone, of looking after myself, and I do a good job of that everyday. That doesn't mean I don't like the feeling of protection from a man, of him looking after me. Because I do. Does that make me weak? I don't think it does. Men also like to feel looked after. I know many women that look after their men. It's just in different ways. I don't see that as a negative thing. Maybe that's just me though.

I admit that regarding dating and things I am extremely old fashioned. I don't want to go out for the night, and pick up someone. I just couldn't do that. I have to get to know someone, and I do want to be treated well by them. I just don't understand how people wouldn't want to do that. Does it take to much effort? Well it should! I want to be treated well by a man, and for him to be polite, and I will appreciate it. However, it is becoming more apparent to me why not many men behave that way anymore. Because women just don't appreciate it, and they get reactions like the one my friend gave. How can we expect them to continue acting well towards us, when that is our reaction? My friend won't go out with this guy again, and he will wonder why. I wonder if he realises he was just to nice. The dating world is not a friendly place.

Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 05, 2006
women seem to be in a difficult position. On one hand we are strong, independent people, who are capable of looking after ourselves, and on the other I am sure there is a part of us all that just likes to be looked after, and feel protected.


Maybe you need to think about the reasons. What's your agenda?

What's your friend's phone number?
on Jun 05, 2006
Maybe you need to think about the reasons. What's your agenda?


When you are in a relationship with someone, you can't remain hard and strong all the time. You have to give pieces of yourself away, and become vulnerable. I like to feel like that when I'm with someone. That with them there is no act, that I can feel protected when with the, and they will respect me. Is that a bad thing?

What's your friend's phone number?


Haha...your kind of girl is she, hehe....
on Jun 05, 2006
I don't even know what to say to this. When I was dating.......... women who met and bedded men were the ones with the most baggage. They didn't believe they deserved a good man and so settled for scumbags. And if a nice guy did come along and treat her well, she thought him weak.

When I started dating my husband I would insist on paying for something on our dates. At first he wanted nothing to do with it, but after awhile when he saw I meant it only to ease the financial part of getting to know him, he got better at accepting it....but not much.

Your friend is silly and someday when she meets "the one" she will regret all the times she gave away his gift to scumbags.

You could look at it this way...she and her ilk are keeping the scumbags busy..so that's more nice guys for you!
on Jun 05, 2006
While not 62, I guess I am of that generation.  I treat women with respect and do the door and chair routines.  If they have a problem with that, then they have the problem, not me.  I refuse to be forced to practice rude and obnoxious habits due to some feminine mystique that dictates they cannot accept hospitatlity and good manners.
on Jun 05, 2006
women who met and bedded men were the ones with the most baggage. They didn't believe they deserved a good man and so settled for scumbags. And if a nice guy did come along and treat her well, she thought him weak.


It just seems to be the norm now. At least for the people I know. Nice men are considered to be too easy, and straightforward. So they must be hiding something. Some people are never satisfied.


When I started dating my husband I would insist on paying for something on our dates. At first he wanted nothing to do with it, but after awhile when he saw I meant it only to ease the financial part of getting to know him, he got better at accepting it....but not much.


Some men do find a woamn wanting to pay very difficult to accept. I like to pay for mysel also. I hate feeling like I owe someone something. Even though I don't really. I can't explain it....

You could look at it this way...she and her ilk are keeping the scumbags busy..so that's more nice guys for you!


Haha...now if someone could just tell me where the nice ones hang out....

I treat women with respect and do the door and chair routines. If they have a problem with that, then they have the problem, not me.


I couldn't agree more! I think it's lovely you are like that, I wouldn't expect anything less, hehe!

Thanks for the comments x
on Jun 05, 2006
I would guess that more of what your friend was responding to was a complete lack of connection and they way she articulated it was by
focusing on those grand gestures. I know from experience, actually, in this day and age those kinds of things can be uncomfortable--if there's
no attraction between you and the person. For me, I feel I'm somehow more indebted to somebody who does all the hoo-haw, and I don't
like feeling indebted to someone I'm not really interested in (for their sake, it just feels scummy, like they're being used.) I imagine that
when your friend meets the right guy he'll both be able to respect her in the ways she wants, but she'll also be open to the small expressions
of politeness that also stand for respect.

And that might not be bad advice for men. We tell women to save certain things for the men who really matter, in a similar manner, it might
save some sweet guys a lot of heart ache (and cash) if they saved the big gestures for women they know will appreciate them.

Cheers.
on Jun 05, 2006
Women have been lied to and conned!!!

If you look at the women's movement before Gloria Steinham and her ilk, it was all about gaining equal rights for women. Somewhere around the 60s the women's movment changed... it was no longer about equal rights, it was about power. Power for a few elitists who set themselves up as the voice of their sex. Liars and Conpersons all!!!

Ok, so the practice of opening a door or pulling a chair out for a lady is a bit outdated... afterall, how long has it been since you have seen a woman in a hoopskirt. Hoopskirts made it difficult, if not impossible to open doors, and pull out chairs and do all sorts of things... so it fell to a gentleman to prevent his lady from such an embarrassing situation.

Ok, so a lady quite possible makes every bit as much as her gentleman caller, and she is very much in a position to pay her own way. So what! Does that mean that if a gentleman asks her out to an expensive restaurant and a broadway play, she should have to pay her own way to it?

The fact is, when I open the door, pull out a chair, pay her way, or do something else for her, I'm not in the least implying that she can't do that herself.... I am implying that she shouldn't have to. Why shouldn't she have to? Because Mamma didn't raise me to look at a lady as a target for vaginally assisted masturbation.

Too bad that's all Gloria Stienham, Gloria Allred and the other liars and conpersons want our of women... I notice THEY insist on better treatment for themselves.

It's ok I guess though... I often wonder how the NOW gang would react to learn that they aren't the biggest women's organization in American. In fact, the biggest women's orgainzation is Christian, teaches that "no success outside the home can compensate for failure inside the home" and has a motto that says (horror of all horrors) "Charity Never Faileth". In fact, thebiggest Women's Organization in America is the Relief Society (Women's Auxillery) of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints..

Take that Miss Gloria!!! ;~D
on Jun 05, 2006

For me, I feel I'm somehow more indebted to somebody who does all the hoo-haw, and I don't
like feeling indebted to someone I'm not really interested in

Common courtesy should not be an indebted issue.  I understand your feelings and can respect them.  However, the man is not doing it for any recompense, but because he is a gentleman.

on Jun 05, 2006
Oh, I know a good guy doesn't see me as obligated to anything by buying flowers, or dinner, or holding open
doors. But that doesn't change the fact that, if I'm not actually interested in him and sticking through the evening for politeness' sake, I'm going
to feel badly for "wasting" his time and money. But there are plenty of women who will soak up all the financial and physical attention they can
get, and some men who will see themselves as "owed" something for all their money and hard work. I'm a big believer in going dutch and/or
going casual for a first date or two. When you know both parties are interested then's the time to pull out all the stops. I've just seen too many
friends, both men and women, hurt because they thought they were following all the "rules" only to find their date unreceptive to such.
on Jun 05, 2006

I'm going to feel badly for "wasting" his time and money.

That is because you are an honorable lady.  And I know telling you "you shouldn't" is not going to change how you 'feel'.  And I can respect that.

on Jun 05, 2006
Your friend obviously hasn't dated men like him before. Perhaps she's just been dating the wrong guys. It's ok for women to be independent and such but it's also good when they can be gracious and accept it when a man is being a "gentleman". There's not too many of those around these days.
on Jun 05, 2006
No, FEMALE SUPREMACY is killing Chivalry. I know many good feminists who would call these things "manners"!
on Jun 05, 2006
While not 62, I guess I am of that generation. I treat women with respect and do the door and chair routines. If they have a problem with that, then they have the problem, not me. I refuse to be forced to practice rude and obnoxious habits due to some feminine mystique that dictates they cannot accept hospitatlity and good manners.
---DrGuy

What he said, in spades.

Feminism, though possessing its positive attributes and results, has done more harm than good as far as the relationship between the genders. If everyone gets to be equal, who gets to be the one to take control? Someone has to take charge and lead the way, and someone has to allow themselves to BE led, or else you get nowhere. Your friend is getting nowhere.

In the 40 or so years since Betty Freidan "started" this "revolution", divorce rates have skyrocketed, the traditional family "ideal" is in tatters, and workplace tension has increased geometrically, because of sexual harrassment and discrimination charges. And look at your friend; she was feeling harrassed because the guy was treating her like a lady should be treated! Isn't that great? All that freedom! Thanks, Betty!

I can remember this one time being downtown, when I was a kid, maybe 8 or 9, and seeing a small NOW rally on the Market St. Plaza in my home town; they were crazy! Yelling and screaming; no wonder men and women have so much trouble now. All that hate back then has done so much damage on down the line.
on Jun 05, 2006
"Someone has to take charge and lead the way, and someone has to allow themselves to BE led, or else you get nowhere."

Two points here: Antagonistically, I notice you didn't specify which gender should be the leader and which should be the follower? Perhaps it's just time for a change up? And does this attitude follow for races as well? Has nothing gotten accomplished since we stopped letting only (not even yet mostly) white, heterosexual men run the Western world?

Less antagonistically, Isn't compromise, and the mutual, dynamic solution to issues the cornerstone of any good relationship, really? And the key to a succesful democracy as well?

Beyond that, are you trying to imply that before feminism people weren't harassed or discriminated against in the workplace? Or just feeding into the continuing myth that prior to the 1960s most women were stay at home wives and mothers? (Patently untrue; only the affluent minority were stay at home wives and mothers.)

And while we're at it, do you think screaming abortion protesters look any more sane? No, because whenever anyone is inflamed publicly about something they're passionate about they're not attractive.

Feel free to have your own opinions, but the way you expressed them here is ridiculously naiive.
on Jun 05, 2006
There is absolutely nothing wrong with good manners, regardless of who they are directed towards. I think your friend is being absolutely ridiculous and deserves all the rotten bastards who will only use her, treat her crappy and discard her for the next attractive ladette who flashes a smile.

I've been accused of being too nice in the past. But I won't give in, damn it... I am going to prove to the world that nice guys can finish first, even if it means me throwing all my good manners out the window
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