#3 by Tova7

Kudos on that bit Tova.

#2 by Sally jacobs Mon, June 05, 2006 06:18 AM

I just don't know. I've never dated, so, in that aspect I am at a loss. Still, I hold doors for people. Regardless of whether it is a guy or gal, I just tend to be nice. So far, I have been (lucky?) to not encounter a women who felt I was 'too' nice. Kind of, silly I think. Yet, I can understand that there is a reason for it. So...C'est la vie, malheursment.

~L

know from experience, actually, in this day and age those kinds of things can be uncomfortable--if there's no attraction between you and the person. For me, I feel I'm somehow more indebted to somebody who does all the hoo-haw, and I don'tlike feeling indebted to someone

I know what you mean, if a guy offers to buy me a drink and I'm not interested in him, I just can't let him do it. I, like you, don't want to feel that I owe someone something. I have friends that can let blokes buy them drinks all night, I just can't do it. I also understand that them kind of things can be uncomfortable, but I'm not sure people finding good manners uncomfortable is a bad thing.

The fact is, when I open the door, pull out a chair, pay her way, or do something else for her, I'm not in the least implying that she can't do that herself.... I am implying that she shouldn't have to. Why shouldn't she have to? Because Mamma didn't raise me to look at a lady as a target for vaginally assisted masturbation.

Ahhh well said. I have nothing to add...that just about says it all!

Common courtesy should not be an indebted issue. I understand your feelings and can respect them. However, the man is not doing it for any recompense, but because he is a gentleman.

I know this, but when you are on the recieving end, and you aren't giving anything back, you do feel like you owe them something.

Perhaps she's just been dating the wrong guys. It's ok for women to be independent and such but it's also good when they can be gracious and accept it when a man is being a "gentleman". There's not too many of those around these days.

I think she just isn't used to someone treating her like that, and therefore didn't don't how to react to it. Unfortunately she took it in a negative way. I did tell her she was lucky, because not all men act like that anymore. I thien thought to myself, can you blame them though when they get a response like that!

I know many good feminists who would call these things "manners"!

As they should!

If everyone gets to be equal, who gets to be the one to take control? Someone has to take charge and lead the way, and someone has to allow themselves to BE led, or else you get nowhere. Your friend is getting nowhere

I don't like to be the one to take charge, I am actually happy to take a more submissive role. That's just me though, I know not everyone is like that.

divorce rates have skyrocketed, the traditional family "ideal" is in tatters, and workplace tension has increased geometrically, because of sexual harrassment and discrimination charges.

Hmm...I only half agree with this. There was a time when women didn't feel they were able to speak up when they were unhappy, or when they were treated badly in the work place. So the fact they are now able to is a great thing. However, there are those that use it to their advantage, and to manipulate the situation, but I think that is something that you just have to accept will happen.

Antagonistically, I notice you didn't specify which gender should be the leader and which should be the follower? Perhaps it's just time for a change up? And does this attitude follow for races as well? Has nothing gotten accomplished since we stopped letting only (not even yet mostly) white, heterosexual men run the Western world?

I don't really think that is something you can compare to race, they are separate issues. In a relationship, it is a partnership, and I agree that one person does have to take charge, otherwise you will just be constantly battling, and a relationship is not a battle ground. It should be about getting the best out of each other, and working as a team.

I think your friend is being absolutely ridiculous and deserves all the rotten bastards who will only use her, treat her crappy and discard her for the next attractive ladette who flashes a smile.

Wow....fiesty Maso, I like it!

. I've never dated, so, in that aspect I am at a loss. Still, I hold doors for people. Regardless of whether it is a guy or gal, I just tend to be nice.

My advice to you is, when you do start dating be aware...it's not a nice place out there, haha!

Thanks for all the comments guys x

I think your friend is an idiot.

For myself, good manners are automatic; habit. Opening/holding the door for a lady is just proper manners. It's also proper manners to do likewise for another gentleman at a public building as well. It's not something to which I've ever had to give thought, I just do it.

This modern world of ours needs more manners, certainly not less.

fiesty Maso, I like it!

If one thing really annoys me, it is bad manners. There is nothing wrong or weak about saying please, thank you or holding a door open for anybody, regardless of gender. People who carry on about people who have good manners are the trigger that makes me want to explode in their faces. What sort of upbringing does a person need to have to get to a mind set where good manners are a point of ridicule or are considered weird or creepy. I just don't get it...

I admit I'd feel uncomfortable when men would open doors for me...that just meant I'd have to wait at the door like a helpless, feeble invalid while he came around to do it for me. I can do without men opening doors for me, UNLESS it is my husband while I'm carrying a child in one arm and groceries in the other, then I'd like to think that he'd open the door without being asked...or GLARED at. Believe me, I've had to beg him to open doors for me in such situations and he looked at me like I was a helpless whiner. 'Nother story.

Men paying for dates? I was never comfortable with that either because I don't like feeling like a leech. Back in my dating days I was the sugarmama anyhow. I paid for everything. I didn't mind. It made me feel in control. Other aspects of the relationships were usually 50/50 though. It worked out and we were happy.

Then what good are men? For companionship, snuggling, sincere compliment showering, protection. And nowadays yes, my husband does pay for everything. Boyfriends don't need to be "providers," but it's nice when husbands are willing to step up to that plate.

Then what good are men?

My wife asks that question all the time.

It seems to me that this gentleman was the opposite of what she is accustomed to she became uncomfortable and defensive. When we become defensive we quickly justify our actions. Sounds like her family didn't teach how a REAL man should treat her. This is a residual I see from the WWII.

As a nice guy I have been treated very horribly by women while treating them as a lady. I have been called gay (implying that it is bad in regards to my motive of dating) because I wouldn't be so quick to jump in the sack. In college that's a hard label to live down because it makes you want to rebel against your character to prove a point. But now that I am engaged to the most wonderful lady in all the world I am thankful for my chivalry and so is she. Now instead of sometimes viewing it as a curse it is such a blessing!

Hmmm....maybe I was a little unclear. Sorry.

Antagonistically, I notice you didn't specify which gender should be the leader and which should be the follower?

---Sarah

I didn't specify because I agreed with you when you said that you had to be willing to give "little pieces of yourself away". That's very true. Compromise in any relationship is paramount.
The goal of true, militant Feminism, though, is Female Superiority at the expense of the male. As an especially damaging example: Who needs fathers anymore, right? Take the miserable jerk's sperm donation, kick'im to the curb, and raise that kid alone! Hear me roar!

And does this attitude follow for races as well?

---Sarah

No, but I thought we were talking about genders, not races.

Has nothing gotten accomplished since we stopped letting only (not even yet mostly) white, heterosexual men run the Western world?

---Sarah

I never said that women weren't capable. They've proven themselves many times over in many roles.

Beyond that, are you trying to imply that before feminism people weren't harassed or discriminated against in the workplace?

---Sarah

Sure they were; but then, that was before Feminism taught them that overhearing a dirty joke as they passed the Men's Room or from an office down the hall qualified as "harrassment".

Or just feeding into the continuing myth that prior to the 1960s most women were stay at home wives and mothers? (Patently untrue; only the affluent minority were stay at home wives and mothers.)

---Sarah

Gosh, I wish someone would have told my grandmother and great- aunts that they were in the "affluent minority". Maybe it would have made them feel better after cleaning their houses, cooking three meals a day and handwashing all those dirty cloth diapers.

Sorry.....all those "Sarahs" were supposed to be "Sallys", and now it's not letting me edit.

wow, what a great guy, sad that your friend thinks about him in the light she is seeing him in!

It's got to be difficult to be in this generation, where things have changed, and then have someone come along, with the upbringing from my generation come along and treat her gently...

Your very title has been talked about for decades now, even in the 60's when I was dating, guys were changing how they treated us because of the women's movement.
Men didn't know! what they were suspposed to do.

I've always thought that good manners never go out of style, and that they help make the world a gentler kinder place.
Every man she meets is going to have a different view and upbringing, ect, so it's a game of roulette!

Best wishes to her, may she meet and date the type she wants. Send me the number of the guy so I can introduce him to my daughter. Wait, my daughter probably is too old for him...shucks! she's 35.

I'd feel uncomfortable when men would open doors for me...that just meant I'd have to wait at the door like a helpless, feeble invalid while he came around to do it for me.

I find it a bit sad you think this way, Angela. I don't think those who hold doors open are doing so because they believe the woman to be a 'helpless, feeble invalid' but just out of simple, decent courtesy.

I've always thought that good manners never go out of style, and that they help make the world a gentler kinder place.

Well said and I couldn't agree more.

I find it a bit sad you think this way, Angela. I don't think those who hold doors open are doing so because they believe the woman to be a 'helpless, feeble invalid' but just out of simple, decent courtesy.

I guess it's at that awkward time of getting to know someone, that awkward silence while he makes a point to take the extra 15 seconds to go out of his way to open the door I'm standing right next to.

But if my husband did that, now that we've long since overcome the awkward phase (I don't think there ever was an awkward phase with us) I'd be used to the door-opening and even consider it super-polite and take it as a sign of respect. But we're way too casual for formalities like that. Perhaps that's sad, but we're doin' all right, all things considered.

Ah, yes. The age old question of "Is Chivalry dead, or just on life support?"

My mother raised me in the old fashioned Southern tradition. She taught me the manners of a gentleman. If (or rather, when) I didn't use them, she beat me about the head and shoulder's 'til I did.

Seriously, I was raised to a particular standard - a female is a lady, until she proves otherwise. A lady should always be addressed with respect (yes/no Ma'am, nod, pay attention when she speaks, etc.). Opening doors, deferring order of precendence (letting the lady enter first or order first, as examples), and other examples of polite manners aren't to put down the lady. Au contraire! They're to lift up and honor the lady. A gesture of humility. An indication that you can actually think of someone other than yourself.

I've been married for eleven and a half years at this point. To this day, I still walk my wife to the car if she's leaving and I'm still at home. When we get to a store or an office, I open the door for her (and no, it's not just because she's usually got several of the kids hanging off of her). I still get glares from time to time, but I know that she secretly enjoys it. At least, she gets that knowing little smile when she thinks I can't see it.

I've related this incident before, but it still sticks in my mind as an example of how far common, decent manners have fallen. I was in Philedelphia, at the 30th Street train station catching a train back to Richmond after a business trip to New Jersey. There was a older (mid-40's) lady and her elderly mother. Her mother needed her assistance to even walk (and the aid of a walker, as well). The younger of the two ladies kept trying to juggle her mother and the doors at the same time, and failing. I first noticed them as I was crossing the street (a good hundred yards or more away). In the time it took me to cover the distance to the door, I saw no less than 4 able bodied men (and a couple extra women) walk out the door and make no attempt at aid. Several even looked straight at them as they came out the same door the ladies were trying to enter. When I got there, I held the door open for the ladies (and I was moving with the aid of a cane at this point, myself). When I cross the 10 feet to the inner door, and held it open for them to enter, I swear that the younger of the two ladies was going to have a heart attack on the spot. The look on her face was one of sheer incredulity. I wished them a good evening and safe travel and continued to where I was to board the train. As I walked away, the younger woman commented to her mother (and this is how I know it was her mother) "Momma, maybe there's hope for this world yet."

That incident (and all the smiles from the ladies at work when I hold the door for them) make the slaps (yes, I've been slapped (hard) for being a gentleman) and snide comments from other ladies (usually AFTER they walk through the politely held door), all worthwhile.

To get back to the point - ladies, when we gentleman try to do as Sally's friend's date does, it's not because we're weak, or Momma's boys. A good number of us were taught to treat women as ladies - as a means of honoring them.

Y'all take care now, ya hear?

I admit I'd feel uncomfortable when men would open doors for me...that just meant I'd have to wait at the door like a helpless, feeble invalid while he came around to do it for me. I can do without men opening doors for me,

For me, it isn't something I expect. I'm capable of opening my own door. However when a man does it, I do appreciate it. That doesn't mean I hang about waiting for them to do it. I could be there all day!

Men paying for dates? I was never comfortable with that either because I don't like feeling like a leech

I'm not always comfortable with that. I get the feeling some men feel they are paying for something else. Maybe that says more about them men I have dated though!

Then what good are men? For companionship, snuggling, sincere compliment showering, protection

Sounds good to me!

For myself, good manners are automatic; habit. Opening/holding the door for a lady is just proper manners

As they should be. They come naturally to me, and I don't understand how people can think they are an effort.

This modern world of ours needs more manners, certainly not less.

Agreed. *walks off grumbling about the youth of today*

People who carry on about people who have good manners are the trigger that makes me want to explode in their faces. What sort of upbringing does a person need to have to get to a mind set where good manners are a point of ridicule or are considered weird or creepy

I personally think these people are just stupid. Harsh but fair.

she became uncomfortable and defensive.

Yes she did. I don't know how to get her out of that mindset either.

As a nice guy I have been treated very horribly by women while treating them as a lady. I have been called gay (implying that it is bad in regards to my motive of dating) because I wouldn't be so quick to jump in the sack. In college that's a hard label to live down because it makes you want to rebel against your character to prove a point. But now that I am engaged to the most wonderful lady in all the world I am thankful for my chivalry and so is she.

Well I'm glad your story had a happy ending. By the sounds of that you was to good for them chicks anyway!

Sorry.....all those "Sarahs" were supposed to be "Sallys", and now it's not letting me edit

Umm are you sure? You were responding to her post I think? I agreed with alot you said.....

I've always thought that good manners never go out of style, and that they help make the world a gentler kinder place. Every man she meets is going to have a different view and upbringing, ect, so it's a game of roulette!

Good manners is something I am finding less often in men my age. They just don't seem to have it in them anymore. I can't blame them when they get responses like that though.

Send me the number of the guy so I can introduce him to my daughter. Wait, my daughter probably is too old for him...shucks! she's 35.

Hehe...I think he was 25, she after a toyboy?

Chaos Manager, you got my insightful just for giving that woman some hope! Thanks for sharing!

I'll hold a door open for anyone, male or female if for some reason they can't do it themselves, but as for standing when a woman enters the room, or don't start eating until they do, those things are just stupid. Have women come a long way, or not?