"Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood."
Sometimes I just don't understand my generation. Maybe that's because I'm really a 62 year old, stuck in a 22 year olds body. Maybe it is the people that I associate with. I don't know. I'm at a loss though, I really am. I'm not sure if it's just me or not, so let me share with you.....

My friend went on a date. Now for starters my friend doesn't really do dates. She's more of buy me a few drinks and take me home kind of girl. As are, alot of people I know. They seem to miss out on the whole dating thing, and jump to the 'good stuff', as they would say. Not my thing, but it does seem to be a popular thing with girls my age (at least the ones I know). So each to their own. However, on Friday night she went on a date. With a man she met at work. He asked her if she would like to go out, and she accepted. Nothing to strange so far. So yesterday I spoke to my friend, and asked her how her date went. She actually look traumatised for a moment, and told me it was the most awful experience she had ever gone through. Now my initial thoughts were the guy had turned out to be a complete jerk, they'd had nothing to say to each other, and the date had ended before it had really started. Silly me.

So what was this man guilty of? Well I shall tell you, he was just to nice! God damn him, and all the nice men of the world, how can you be to nice! So let me give you a run through of what the horrible brute did to my friend. He brought her flowers! Tut tut....doesn't he know he only has to do that when he's done something wrong? What a loser! He opened doors for her, and pulled her chair out when she sat down. Good manners! Oh no! We don't want them! Silly boy! He wouldn't let her pay for anything, grrrrr at him! They went to the cinema, and someone was talking loudly, and my friend asked them to be quiet, and they were slightly rude to her, at which point this man stepped in, and told them that wasn't anyway to speak to a 'lady'. I think that was the thing she hated the most. After listing his crimes to me, my friend looked at me, expecting me to be as shocked and appalled as she was. At that point the only thing that shocked me was that someone had called her a lady.

I questioned my friend a little further about all this. Because I really did think it was some kind of joke. She was deadly serious though. She informed me that men just weren't like that these days. Well I'm guessing the ones that get you drunk and take you home on the first night, generally aren't. She told me she liked to pay her way. Now that I can understand. However, if a man insists on paying I don't think that is something to be offended by. In my eyes it just means he was brought up right. She said she couldn't handle him opening doors for her etc. That she was a fully capable woman, that didn't need a man to do such things for her. She was also upset that he had jumped to her defence in the cinema. In her eyes she is well able to look after herself, and doesn't need a man to do it for her. She felt, because of that, he somehow felt he was in control, and the dominanat party. *sigh*.

I didn't try to reason with my friend, as her mind was pretty set on it, and to be perfectly honest I don't think the two of them would be a good match anyway. It just makes me sad to think that my friend would reject a man behaving well towards her so easily, and also makes me wonder just exactly what she considers to be a good date, if that was bad. Thinking about it, women seem to be in a difficult position. On one hand we are strong, independent people, who are capable of looking after ourselves, and on the other I am sure there is a part of us all that just likes to be looked after, and feel protected. I know I feel that. I know I am capable of functioning alone, of looking after myself, and I do a good job of that everyday. That doesn't mean I don't like the feeling of protection from a man, of him looking after me. Because I do. Does that make me weak? I don't think it does. Men also like to feel looked after. I know many women that look after their men. It's just in different ways. I don't see that as a negative thing. Maybe that's just me though.

I admit that regarding dating and things I am extremely old fashioned. I don't want to go out for the night, and pick up someone. I just couldn't do that. I have to get to know someone, and I do want to be treated well by them. I just don't understand how people wouldn't want to do that. Does it take to much effort? Well it should! I want to be treated well by a man, and for him to be polite, and I will appreciate it. However, it is becoming more apparent to me why not many men behave that way anymore. Because women just don't appreciate it, and they get reactions like the one my friend gave. How can we expect them to continue acting well towards us, when that is our reaction? My friend won't go out with this guy again, and he will wonder why. I wonder if he realises he was just to nice. The dating world is not a friendly place.

Comments (Page 5)
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on Jun 10, 2006
No, that seems to be the case when you do it. Some of us are just being polite which is the part you seem incapable of understanding.


What's wrong with flirting?
on Jun 10, 2006
Nothing wrong with flirting... it just isn't the end-all-be-all justification to being helpful.
on Jun 10, 2006
#61 by Içonoçlast
Sat, June 10, 2006 10:49 AM



[Içonoçlast]
No, that seems to be the case when you do it. Some of us are just being polite which is the part you seem incapable of understanding.


What's wrong with flirting?


Who said there's anything wrong with flirting?

In the correct setting, I see nothing wrong with it. It just isn't the motivation for being polite that you are trying to assert here. That's one of the biggest problems we have in our society today; far too many people find the ideas of civility and politeness to be foreign concepts that they either can't fathom or attribute to ulterior motives. This says a great deal about their values, upbringing, and self-centeredness.
on Jun 11, 2006
good manners ARE "simple human decency"!!! NOT special treatment....


Standing when a woman enters the room and don't start eating until they do are special treatment.
on Jun 16, 2006
I'm glad somebody else has noticed this about women. I was raised up in a traditional house hold that taught having manners and being a gentleman are the most important things. The results from this is that I have a ton of "hot" friends that are girls but yet all of them tell me that I am too nice to them. The said part is that I'm only 20. What should I do? Spit in there face and treat them like garbage? I think I have a better chance of being struck by lightening than finding a well manored family oriented girl. Ha ha...good writing though.
on Jun 29, 2006
suzy_willson@yahoo.com
on Jun 30, 2006
What's called flirting? Someone opening a door for me? No wonder I'v had it so wrong all this time.......I thought it was just good manners. Silly me. Men are more devious than I first anticipated. They can manage to flirt with me, and I don't even notice


LOL - well said, Sally.

I think the interpretation of what is manners and what is flirting is where the problems start. Some men are opportunistic predators who look for the next piece of pie with every contact they make with the opposite sex. It is not fair for all the polite, decent people out there for whom manners and common courtesy are a way of life.
on Aug 14, 2006
This modern world of ours needs more manners, certainly not less.


I couldn't agree with you more! Manners are sadly lacking in the world. Good manners can hurt no one! If more parents raised their kids with decent manners we would be living in a far more pleasant world.

yes to good maners and etiquitte. *nods knowingly and wisely*
on Aug 21, 2006
To me, this isn't anything to do with feminism or chivalry. She was quite right to be creeped out by this guy. He came on way too strong and was much too controlling, especially for a first date. When a guy seeks this degree of control this early on - especially over the woman's objections - it's often enough a warning sign and a clear message to get away quickly. Chivalry, to the extent that it's about anything worthwhile, is defined most generally as the idea of putting the woman's needs/wishes above one's own. Here, the guy was so occupied with following this superficially chivalrous script that he paid no attention to his date's wishes or comfort. Opening the door and offering (here, I stress offering) to pay is one thing; both are certainly appropriate on a first date unless and until the woman objects to it. But immediately presuming to speak on behalf of a woman one hardly even knows, in particular, goes much too far, and is no more appropriate than it would be to order for her at a restaurant without even asking what she would like. In isolation, all of these things could be perfectly unobjectionable. I must admit that I do occasionally enjoy each of the gestures this guy made during the date you describe (apart from the "no way to speak to a lady" remark; I am not going to wilt or shrivel up just from hearing a "bad word" - I enjoy making full use of language in all of its variety myself - , and "lady", when used in this manner, borders on the infantilising). If this guy were truly chivalrous, he'd have backed off of the Victorian Suitor routine at the first sign his date was uncomfortable. Looking at the situation as a whole, he wasn't being "chivalrous" or "old fashioned" or "romantic", he was being controlling and overbearing.

Feminism didn't kill chivalry; at the most, it has made us look at specific gestures and customs described as 'chivalrous' and ask ourselves what's behind them. If chivalry's dying, it's because supposedly chivalrous gestures are employed all too often by men of questionable character as a manner of gaining control over women while making them feel guilty or ungrateful if they object. A few creepy tossers have ruined it for everyone. When I don't let a guy walk me home on the first date, it's not because I'm afraid Betty Friedan is going to jump out of the bushes.
on Aug 22, 2006
Dude, it sounds like your friend totally didn't want that guy pulling out her chair for her, and he shouldn't have done it if she didn't want him to.
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