"Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood."
Sometimes I just don't understand my generation. Maybe that's because I'm really a 62 year old, stuck in a 22 year olds body. Maybe it is the people that I associate with. I don't know. I'm at a loss though, I really am. I'm not sure if it's just me or not, so let me share with you.....

My friend went on a date. Now for starters my friend doesn't really do dates. She's more of buy me a few drinks and take me home kind of girl. As are, alot of people I know. They seem to miss out on the whole dating thing, and jump to the 'good stuff', as they would say. Not my thing, but it does seem to be a popular thing with girls my age (at least the ones I know). So each to their own. However, on Friday night she went on a date. With a man she met at work. He asked her if she would like to go out, and she accepted. Nothing to strange so far. So yesterday I spoke to my friend, and asked her how her date went. She actually look traumatised for a moment, and told me it was the most awful experience she had ever gone through. Now my initial thoughts were the guy had turned out to be a complete jerk, they'd had nothing to say to each other, and the date had ended before it had really started. Silly me.

So what was this man guilty of? Well I shall tell you, he was just to nice! God damn him, and all the nice men of the world, how can you be to nice! So let me give you a run through of what the horrible brute did to my friend. He brought her flowers! Tut tut....doesn't he know he only has to do that when he's done something wrong? What a loser! He opened doors for her, and pulled her chair out when she sat down. Good manners! Oh no! We don't want them! Silly boy! He wouldn't let her pay for anything, grrrrr at him! They went to the cinema, and someone was talking loudly, and my friend asked them to be quiet, and they were slightly rude to her, at which point this man stepped in, and told them that wasn't anyway to speak to a 'lady'. I think that was the thing she hated the most. After listing his crimes to me, my friend looked at me, expecting me to be as shocked and appalled as she was. At that point the only thing that shocked me was that someone had called her a lady.

I questioned my friend a little further about all this. Because I really did think it was some kind of joke. She was deadly serious though. She informed me that men just weren't like that these days. Well I'm guessing the ones that get you drunk and take you home on the first night, generally aren't. She told me she liked to pay her way. Now that I can understand. However, if a man insists on paying I don't think that is something to be offended by. In my eyes it just means he was brought up right. She said she couldn't handle him opening doors for her etc. That she was a fully capable woman, that didn't need a man to do such things for her. She was also upset that he had jumped to her defence in the cinema. In her eyes she is well able to look after herself, and doesn't need a man to do it for her. She felt, because of that, he somehow felt he was in control, and the dominanat party. *sigh*.

I didn't try to reason with my friend, as her mind was pretty set on it, and to be perfectly honest I don't think the two of them would be a good match anyway. It just makes me sad to think that my friend would reject a man behaving well towards her so easily, and also makes me wonder just exactly what she considers to be a good date, if that was bad. Thinking about it, women seem to be in a difficult position. On one hand we are strong, independent people, who are capable of looking after ourselves, and on the other I am sure there is a part of us all that just likes to be looked after, and feel protected. I know I feel that. I know I am capable of functioning alone, of looking after myself, and I do a good job of that everyday. That doesn't mean I don't like the feeling of protection from a man, of him looking after me. Because I do. Does that make me weak? I don't think it does. Men also like to feel looked after. I know many women that look after their men. It's just in different ways. I don't see that as a negative thing. Maybe that's just me though.

I admit that regarding dating and things I am extremely old fashioned. I don't want to go out for the night, and pick up someone. I just couldn't do that. I have to get to know someone, and I do want to be treated well by them. I just don't understand how people wouldn't want to do that. Does it take to much effort? Well it should! I want to be treated well by a man, and for him to be polite, and I will appreciate it. However, it is becoming more apparent to me why not many men behave that way anymore. Because women just don't appreciate it, and they get reactions like the one my friend gave. How can we expect them to continue acting well towards us, when that is our reaction? My friend won't go out with this guy again, and he will wonder why. I wonder if he realises he was just to nice. The dating world is not a friendly place.

Comments (Page 3)
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on Jun 08, 2006
Another part of the problem is we don't teach our kids how to graciously accept compliments, gifts, or any other act of kindness. I remember when I was young, we used to hear "Christmas is the spirit of giving and receiving". Somewhere along the way the "receiving" part was deemed ungracious, so it was changed to, "The spirit of giving".

I think we have done our society a horrible disservice by demonizing any semblence of receiving. We have robbed ourselves by turning a source of happiness into a source of embarrassment.

Shame on whoever it was who was so short sighted about graciousness that they taught us to feel bad when someone does something nice for us.
on Jun 08, 2006
#30 by Içonoçlast
Thu, June 08, 2006 4:07 PM



[Içonoçlast]
...but as for standing when a woman enters the room, or don't start eating until they do, those things are just stupid.


I couldn't disagree more. A show of respect is never "stupid". Sad that some people today think so.
on Jun 08, 2006
I couldn't disagree more. A show of respect is never "stupid". Sad that some people today think so.


So they all deserve respect whether you know what kind of person they are or not? Bullshit!

What's the purpose, other than you hope it'll get you laid?

"Every time a man offers to do something for a woman, he's offering her some dick. Let me get that for you. (Want some dick?) Let me carry that for you. (Want some dick?)" - Chris Rock

Every man here knows it's true.
on Jun 08, 2006
I live in a small town Missouri and manners were taught her when I was a kid ( are they now, I doubt it...). I was taught to treat a lady with respect, all the open doors, pull out the chair, etc. and I do it's ingrained.

I ventured out to Virginia Beach for about 5 years and found a whole different culture, I had been taught that all women aroud my age were named sweetheart and anyone older than me was M'am. Not so at the beach, I got slapped for both, look at like I was weird for holding a door open for a woman and the such....

I do still practice everything but the "Sweetheart" thing now that I'm back in Missouri and her it's for the most part accepted. Going out on a date though is always odd, many times I have to explain that getting the truck door and the such is respect for the lady and I don't expect anything in return. Most adjust and many are very surprised that some guys still do those things.

What I don't under stand in my little part of the world is why more guys don't give a woman the respect and simple chiveralry. It has gotten me more second dates than any amount of money spent. The girls are just amazed that I take the time to open doors, help them out of the truck ( it's quite tall) and refrain from kissing, or fondeling them on a first date. I figure it like this, If they don't like it, fine it don't hurt me a bit to move on.

In my current relationship with 2Step even after a year and a half I still walk her to the car, open the truck/car door and hand her in, open doors for her, get her chair, listen intently to her, and the like. She is a very independant and capable woman and needs none of it but, she appreciates it all the same.

And yes I'll even go out of my way to help someone male/female that is having problems with a door or whatever, and I always hold the door for those behind me and open the door and allow the womem to go through first.

It may be old fashioned but it's the way I was brought up and in my mind all women are queens and princesses and they will be treated as such. Even if they don't want it.
on Jun 08, 2006
When Sir Walter Raleigh put his coat over a puddle so a woman wouldn't get her shoes wet, (as if the water didn't soak right through the coat), he was offering her some dick, but ever since, men and women have been under the delusion that he did it out of respect.
on Jun 08, 2006
in my mind all women are queens and princesses


Those are British concepts. Raleigh was British. Ironic, huh.
on Jun 08, 2006
#33 by Içonoçlast
Thu, June 08, 2006 5:56 PM



[Içonoçlast]
I couldn't disagree more. A show of respect is never "stupid". Sad that some people today think so.


So they all deserve respect whether you know what kind of person they are or not? Bullshit!

What's the purpose, other than you hope it'll get you laid?

"Every time a man offers to do something for a woman, he's offering her some dick. Let me get that for you. (Want some dick?) Let me carry that for you. (Want some dick?)" - Chris Rock

Every man here knows it's true.



Ummm, no. Not every man thinks that way. It makes for funny humor, but not every man really thinks this way. Pretty pathetic really if a guy's entire life revolves around his sex drive. Some of us actually do believe in showing basic respect towards other people until they prove they don't deserve said respect.
on Jun 08, 2006
Ummm, no. Not every man thinks that way. It makes for funny humor, but not every man really thinks this way. Pretty pathetic really if a guy's entire life revolves around his sex drive. Some of us actually do believe in showing basic respect towards other people until they prove they don't deserve said respect.
---MasonM

Precisely; well said. Respect, to me, is to be offered unconditionally. But to be kept, it must of course be earned.

but as for standing when a woman enters the room, or don't start eating until they do, those things are just stupid. Have women come a long way, or not?
--Icon


So they all deserve respect whether you know what kind of person they are or not? Bullshit!

What's the purpose, other than you hope it'll get you laid?

"Every time a man offers to do something for a woman, he's offering her some dick. Let me get that for you. (Want some dick?) Let me carry that for you. (Want some dick?)" - Chris Rock

Every man here knows it's true.
---Icon

When Sir Walter Raleigh put his coat over a puddle so a woman wouldn't get her shoes wet, (as if the water didn't soak right through the coat), he was offering her some dick, but ever since, men and women have been under the delusion that he did it out of respect
----Icon


Small minded, bitter and petty words from a small minded, bitter and petty person. No wonder you're so loved around here. I'm not surprised you're an atheist.
on Jun 08, 2006
Precisely; well said. Respect, to me, is to be offered unconditionally. But to be kept, it must of course be earned.

My point exactly.

Small minded, bitter and petty words from a small minded, bitter and petty person. No wonder you're so loved around here. I'm not surprised you're an atheist.

That's a bit harsh don't you think?
on Jun 08, 2006
#37 by MasonM


#38 by Rightwinger


There you go, hoping to score (points) with the women.

Respect, to me, is to be offered unconditionally. But to be kept, it must of course be earned


So they earn respect before they earn it?
on Jun 08, 2006
#40 by Içonoçlast
Thu, June 08, 2006 10:57 PM



[Içonoçlast]
#37 by MasonM


#38 by Rightwinger


There you go, hoping to score (points) with the women.

Pathetic. So you simply try to invalidate another viewpoint in this manner? Sorry, but not everyone thinks or acts in the same way as yourself. Get over it.


Respect, to me, is to be offered unconditionally. But to be kept, it must of course be earned


So they earn respect before they earn it?

Maybe you should get a dictionary and look up the words "offered" and "earned". They don't mean the same thing as you seem to think they do. I usually expect to see far better than this crap from you.
You tired from a long day or something?
on Jun 08, 2006
No wonder you're so loved around here.


That's one of the reasons you're here? You proved my point.
on Jun 09, 2006
Iconoclast--
So they earn respect before they earn it?


No, quite the opposite, as a matter of fact. They have my respect until they lose it. It's called having a belief in the worth of other people, rather than believing that other people are selfish, greedy pigs that are only out for themselves. While this may be true for some people (more than I would care to admit to), applying this standard to EVERYONE as the default position, is a bitter, lonely way to go through life.

I'd much rather go through life thinking the best of other people and be proven wrong on the occasions where I *AM* wrong. It's much easier on my emotional/mental state, as well as helping keep my blood pressure under control.

And, sadly, Iconoclast, in this thread alone, you've done a lot to lose the respect that I had for you.

You know what happens to small minded, bitter and petty people (to paraphrase RW's fine description)? They turn into small minded, bitter and petty OLD people. Think about Jack Lemon and Walther Matthau's characters on Grumpy Old Men. That's going to be you when you hit that point in life. That is, if the acidic outlook on life doesn't eat you alive before then.
on Jun 09, 2006
I have to say that I do have a problem with me calling me 'love', 'sweetheart' and the like. i don't know why, it just goes through me. Especially with men I know, can't they just use me name?

Icon, I have to say its opinions like that, that make women react to badly when they are faced with good manners. Alot of the time we do think a man is thinking with his penis, and his actions, are just to get some action for his little guy later on. We don't respond well to that. Alot of the men here have proved that they are well mannered, and not driven by the little guy downstairs. I'm sure this is proven by just how much luck a man who behaves like that gets with the ladies. Or how little action they get, if that's all they are thinking about. Good manners should be just something you do, naturally, and you should have no motive for doing so.

And for the record it will take alot more than a guy opening a door for me to accept the offer of his dick.
on Jun 09, 2006
I have to say that I do have a problem with me calling me 'love', 'sweetheart' and the like. i don't know why, it just goes through me.


It's condescending unless it's coming from someone with whom you have a close relationship. It's also very rude.
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