"Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood."
Published on September 11, 2004 By Sally jacobs In Politics
I try not to get involved in politics, nevermind politics of a completely different country. It would appear American politics matters everywhere. Not just to the Americans. Hardly surprising is it really, considering the size, and wealth of America. The politics of America will end up having a knock on effect everywhere else. That's just the way things work. When British people demonstrated Bush's state visit last year. Our Prime minister in his infinite wisdom, presumed we were anti-America. They were not protesting against America, but against a President they do not trust. He isn't our President, but as I mentioned, that power seems to have a knock on effect. America is our biggest Ally; we have profound bonds of history and culture. Not to mention a shared sacrifice in two world wars. We believe as America does that the worlds sole superpower is a democracy and not - as it might have been had the Soviet Union "won" the Cold War - a tyranny.

At this time of the visit there were alot of Polls done, just to see where the british public stood on President Bush. Lets explain the surveys which simultaneously show great affection for the US, even as they record intense suspicion towards Bush? Pick up one poll and it finds that half the public reckons Blair's closeness to Bush is bad for Britain. Pick up another and it reveals the US is still the place where most Britons want to go on holiday, and even where one in five of us would like to live.

We are in awe of America, no doubt. We follow their films, and books. We follow their fashion, what they have to say to the world. We know they are a super power, and we try to be like them. We also see their Politics. The words Bush says, you are either with us, or against us. We see him manipulate the american Public. His inflated claims of weapons of Mass destruction. Where does it all stop.

We all know Americans are very proud of their country. They are also unsure of Bush though. Just look at all the people that voted against him in 2000. They are not anti-America. Far from it. They love their country. With an intense love, that has simply grown since the tragic events of 9/11. They would die for their country, that doesn't mean they have to have faith in their President.

Tony Blair seems to be of the opinion, to accept america, we have to accept Bush. Not the case. We can accept America, and still not agree with their leader. We can respect everything America stands for, but see they were lead to places they may not have wished to go. We can stand by a nation, but not agree with the direction they always go. I personally am not anti-Bush. I am not with him either. I just want the less of two evils. Here I am explaining the British view, Bush is not popular here. America already knows that though.

Comments (Page 2)
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on Sep 12, 2004
Wow what a response, ok lets do this methodically....

I just discovered your blog site today. I love it!!


Brenda, Thanks for the comment. I also discovered your blog site, and look forward to reading what you have to say. Welcome to JU, and thanks for the support.

No offence to your prime minister, but Bush should really be charging him rent for letting him live in his ass.


...I agree totally with you Dyl!

I have no doubt that Kerry is a decent man and means well, he simply has a different "vision" for america. By the same token, Im not 100% supportive of everything Bush has done during his presidency, either.


I think this is something people have to accept, that we will never fully agree with someone in leadership. Not all their decisions will be perfect, we have to comprimise, even when it comes to such things.

Bush got us into it, let him get us out....to show signs of waffling or weakness now is not a good idea at all, and this is why he will have my vote in November.


I see where you're coming from on this, What you have to way up is how much progress Bush is actually making. Though Bush got you in to it, maybe Kerry will have a better way of getting you out. I don't know.

Yes, many Brits feel that Blair wants to be American too badly and it wounds their pride. I think, however, that Blair does NOT want to be American, he is simply seeing eye to eye with Bush.


Ahh this is a tough one. Brits in general are very proud people, and I agree when you says it hurts their pride. Blair is always just a little fast to agree with Bush though. he shows no back bone. He may agree, but he is allowed an opinion of his own too.

At the moment I agree. If America re-elects Bush however, I will be anti American.


I'll never be anti-American, regardless of who is in leadership.

except where British want to be like the US, us here in Aus know we are better than you both


...trust you Mugz...

George W. Bush does what is right by Americans, for Americans - and it is certainly apparent to me Americans have different values and priorities than any other nation in the Western world. So whilst we are affected, we can only sit and watch the story unfold...


It's true we will be effected, and I have to agree with you, I don't understand the reasoning, but in politics I rarely do. Bush cares about America, and its people, and the people can see that, but I just wonder at what cost that will be to everyone else.

We are divided by a sense of patriotism that is endemic, genuine, and thriving as opposed to cynical and opportunistic. We are divided by the fact that America is a true and actual power in the world, while Britain is a hanger-on still lost in dreams of faded glories and victories which are no longer relevant to the world.


I agree with this comment by the majority. Though I think you are being slightly harsh on Britans patriotism. Surely if we were so cynical and opportunistic, we wouldn't have supported Bush in the first place.

I have nothing against America or its people. I worry about where Bush leadership will take them. Though we will soon see I am sure. America maybe the future, but no matter how powerful it is, it can't do it alone, and if the American leaders test that, then who knows where we will go.

Wingman, no one is attacking America here. Simply questioning the leadership. Something even Americans are doing at the moment. America is surely able to take some critism, considering how much it likes to critise other nations, and make them better. America is a great place, not only for its people, but for the rest of the world. It is leading us all to great things. i just hope your leadership doesn't blind people to that fact. This article was not an attack of America.

Thanks for all your comments folks, much appreciated xxx
on Sep 12, 2004
When world opinion is so terrible of America that radicals feel they are taking a stand by flying commercial airliners into corporate buildings, you would kind of hope that Americans would start caring what the world thinks of them...

I put this question to all Americans here - Maybe in the long run, the best thing by the world would be the best thing for Americans... alas, I think Americans look at it the other way around though - and it is America's right to view national interests as they see fit - remember - America first is a good policy only if you are American - If i may point out in the most respectful way possible, I am glad there are 5.7billion people of other nationalitites on our fine planet.

At the end of the day, the British and Australian governments seem to be verry happy to kiss any US administrations ass - I just hope that the negative world view of America does not rub of on our fine counties - Britain already knows what it is like to be seen as an evil empire through colonial times, though Australia doesn't know what that is like yet... We dont particularly want to find out either.

BAM!!!

on Sep 12, 2004
From an international perspective Dyl - we know there are people like you in America, and we know you have a voice, but the other voice is louder, because it's winning... and as long as it continues to win, Americans will still be seen generally in a negative vibe from others.

we still love you Dyl!

BAM!!!
on Sep 12, 2004
Gee isn't it funny how everyone likes to knock America until the poo hits the fan and then its, "Oh please come save our bacon!" "We are under attack, please liberate our nation" Bla bla bla.


Strange, I have never seen any country ask America to attack them. Maybe what you are talking about happens in the films you watch, but "movies" aren't real and America doesn't save the world everytime. When a large alien craft looms over Earth, we will remember to telephone the Americans, who will cast their best actor to save the rest of the world (who want to be American anyway).
on Sep 12, 2004
Bush got us into it, let him get us out....to show signs of waffling or weakness now is not a good idea at all, and this is why he will have my vote in November.


I see where you're coming from on this, What you have to way up is how much progress Bush is actually making. Though Bush got you in to it, maybe Kerry will have a better way of getting you out. I don't know.


See Sally this "is" the problem. I'm a Bush-lover so what i'm about to say is hard for me. Sen Kerry may indeed have a better way. (Now comes the fun part.) But he has of "yet" to show it to America. He says he has a plan but won't say what it is. This is "really" hurting his chances. And unless he fixes it and "soon", he's going to lose in Nov.
on Sep 12, 2004
How many Dictatorships has your nation turned into Democracies?


Britain stopped the greatest threat to democracy the world has ever known, Nazism, and contrary to what most American historians will tell you America did not "save Britain's ass in WW2" we did all the gritty fighting until the Yanks realised that it was in their best interest to do as we were doing.

I firmly believe in what my Grandfather once told me. The only thing that the Americans charged during the First World War was interest on the money they lent.

Because I'd rather live in the original than in the copy.


Then why is America doing the best impression of the British Empire it can muster. Our nation far outdates America, and has known more glory than America ever will. With the strongest economy in Europe, Britain will lead in the future, and the British will rule as they have been born to do.
on Sep 12, 2004

Reply #19 By: DylanZimmerman - 9/12/2004 8:24:38 AM
What is wrong with taking a global opinion poll exactly? At least it demonstrates that Kerry actually gives a fuck about what the rest of the world thinks. America is not the only country in the world, and war will affect everyone. I don't think Kerry is spineless, I think heis human, whereas Bush is a mere puppet supporting the ideologies of a corrupt and greedy government body, in my opinion.

Iraq is another vietnam because like Vietnam the American government has once again gone sticking its nose in where it's not welcome. America is so powerhungry and supercilious it thinks it's way is the only way, and must therefore subject everyone to its will.

Which is why Kerry will have my vote, and if Bush gets in, I think I'll emmigrate.

Dyl xx


Who "really" cares "what" the rest of the world thinks and "why" should we let their opinion dictate what we do or think?? Kerry "is" spineless because he won't take a firm stand on "anything".
And this won't be another Vietnam. And if you think it will then your wacked! In vietnam our politicians would NOT let us win. Fight and die to win a hill only to give it back to the Viet Cong. You can bomb here but NOT here. Thats the BS that cost us the war. We have no such problems with this war!
And if you plan to emmigrate if Bush wins in Nov., then GET ready now. And please do let me know????? I'll COME HELP YOU PACK!!
on Sep 12, 2004

Reply #26 By: Sir Peter Maxwell - 9/12/2004 9:32:06 AM
How many Dictatorships has your nation turned into Democracies?


Britain stopped the greatest threat to democracy the world has ever known, Nazism, and contrary to what most American historians will tell you America did not "save Britain's ass in WW2" we did all the gritty fighting until the Yanks realised that it was in their best interest to do as we were doing.


Excuse me but wasn't Normandy a "joint" effort? Your people weren't the "only ones" dying that day.
on Sep 12, 2004
Please excuse me once more "Sir Peter". Your attitude is "exactly" why America should "not" care what the rest of the world thinks.
on Sep 12, 2004
Please excuse me once more "Sir Peter". Your attitude is "exactly" why America should "not" care what the rest of the world thinks.


Why would the greatest man since Jesus Christ care what a vile little American peasant thinks of him? My social superiority outweighs the inflated egos of a bunch a inbred peasants that watch too many "movies".

If you don't care what the rest the world thinks then evidently your head is simply too far up your own flag sucking ass to see that we're all the same, there is no real nationality


Here here, we are all English.
on Sep 12, 2004

Reply #30 By: DylanZimmerman - 9/12/2004 9:46:16 AM
If you don't care what the rest the world thinks then evidently your head is simply too far up your own flag sucking ass to see that we're all the same, there is no real nationality, we all live and we will all die, and personally I do not want to see people die for a cause that is futile, and wrong. I don't understand why you people think your precious economy and status as the world's so called last superpower is so much more important than human life. It is people like you who are the very reason this world remains such a frightening and disillusioning world to live in


Since you obviously "do not" live in this country maybe "you" should not be so quick to judge "what" we do OR say!
on Sep 12, 2004
Okay, Sally I have erased my comments and I apologise especially to you for writing vehement shit on an excellent article.

Secondly, drmiler, I don't know which address you think you have, because my browser goes thru an anonymous server so my files dont get nuked again, and I expect its their IP you have.

I also apologise for causing you offence, I spoke out of frustration and fear, and I hope that you accept my apology. I usually avoid these threads because I am so useless with politics, but I've had a lousy week and I was angry and lashed out. that is not an excuse and again I apologise, and take back what I said.I did not mean to make a personal attack but you were rude to me too, there was no need to write something as taunting as "I WILL HELP YOU PACK." but nevermind, I know I should not have reacted as I did.I know I have no right to judge anyone, and nor do you have the right to make assumptions about me. I didnt mean to speak in haste, and I was wrong, i admit that and like i said, I am sorry.

I'm sorry my opinion is not your's and I hope we can get along and avoid further conflict.

Once more I apologise to you both, and anyone else who is pissed because of what i wrote.

Dyl xx
on Sep 12, 2004
I both accept your apology and tender my apology to you as well
on Sep 12, 2004
Hehe, it appears I've missed alot! I know I'm not really needed here, as these debates tend to carry themselves, but I'll add my thoughts...

So, sally....i wish Europeans would understand that what works for them might not work for us, but the base reasons for that are NOT obvious, even to highly educated intellectuals. Remember, my Husband shared your views not so long ago...


You're totally correct, what works for us might not work for you. I wouldn't even consider that. We are completely different worlds. With different histories, and different things working for us. I think though that we have to look at what doesn't work for us too, and instead of sticking with something, because it might work out for the best in the end, we should take some new ideas on. To evolve, we need to change no matter how scary it might be.

Bush should do what is right for Americans, that is why you elect him. When he thinks he knows best for other countries to that is a different story. Should he then still have Americas best interests at heart, but try and 'help' somewhere else. Does that not comprimise his his position?

When world opinion is so terrible of America that radicals feel they are taking a stand by flying commercial airliners into corporate buildings, you would kind of hope that Americans would start caring what the world thinks of them...


I think America has gone the other way, and taken the defensive. Rightly so too. Not the way to ask to be listened too. If it was done in a proper manner, maybe the rest of the world would be listened too.

British and Australian governments seem to be verry happy to kiss any US administrations ass - I just hope that the negative world view of America does not rub of on our fine counties


I think that will happen eventually, if things carry on the same way...

he has of "yet" to show it to America. He says he has a plan but won't say what it is. This is "really" hurting his chances. And unless he fixes it and "soon", he's going to lose in Nov.


I'm not surprised. They say actions speak louder than words, but he needs to get himself the chance to make them actions first.

Who "really" cares "what" the rest of the world thinks and "why" should we let their opinion dictate what we do or think??


Their opinion should not dictate anything, but since America likes to be seen as this superpower, the rest of the worlds opinion does count. Whether you care or not.

Sally I have erased my comments and I apologise especially to you for writing vehement shit on an excellent article


I didn't see the comments, just what was quoted. No need to apologise to me hunny. You're passionate about your beliefs, and you have my respect for that. On this thread at least you can express your beliefs as much as you like. I know you'll do it in a reasonable manner.

Thanks for all the comments xxx
on Sep 12, 2004
America is the future, like it or not.


America is not built for the future at all, the future is Europe, Japan, India, China. The power of the US is already in decline, and as the younger generations of America begin to become the generation of power, they will receive a hearty slap in the face.
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